Why You Should Give A Damn!

Newsletter Archive

Newsletter #7, January, 2006

Welcome to 2006!!

by Davina Kotulski, Ph.D.

I hope you sent 2005 out with a bang and will set aside time to map out your heart’s desires for 2006. The beginning of the year is such an important time to wipe the slate clean and chart a course for the destiny you want to manifest in your life. I couldn’t think of a better time to share with you this fascinating interview I did with the inspirational Reverend Troy Perry.

Back in 1987, when I was 17, I learned about this ìgay friendlyî MCC church and witnessed my mentor and her wife exchange vows. A ìgay-friendly churchî was an unbelievable concept back then, let alone one that did gay weddings. And it is absolutely awe-inspiring to me today, that this ex-communicated, gay minister, Reverend Troy Perry after the struggles he endured growing up, had the tenacity and the vision, to create the Metropolitan Community Church literally out of his Los Angeles apartment in 1968. MCC now has a membership of 43,000 people and 300 congregations around the world. I think this interview will really get you excited about the vast difference one unstoppable person can make and help you gear up to take on all the coming year’s challenges and opportunities.

I truly hope you will enjoy this interview with the incredible Reverend Troy Perry. This interview was conducted July 29, 2003 a month after Canada’s first province recognized same-sex marriage and shortly after Troy married his partner of two-decades, Phillip.

Rev. Troy Perry

began his struggle for marriage equality, over 35 years ago, when he filed the first lawsuit for same-sex marriage recognition. He is a true pioneer of GLBT civil rights.

Tell me a little bit about your family life. What kind of family did you grow up in?

I was born July 27, 1940, in Tallahassee, Florida. I lived there until I was 13 years old. I grew up in a wonderful, loving, caring family when my dad was alive. It was just incredible. I have four younger brothers. We’re a very tight family. My mother remarried after my dad died. He was very, very bad. He beat up our mother. I had to call the police on him. The Police locked him up in jail. He was there about a week and then mother let him out. That happened when I was 13. I knew he was going to kill me so I ran away from home and just kept running until my mother left him. My mother was a little country girl and my father had left her lots of property; but by southern laws, when my mother remarried, the man took it all. My mother kept us together through thick and through thin.

I’m the oldest. My brother Jimmy told the Mayor at my mother’s funeral, ìWe’re always confused about Troy. He was really our brother, but he was also the father in our family. So, when people talk about gay males, I know better and I speak right up and speak out. Troy signed our report cards, took us to school, made sure we were all right if we were sick.î

When did you first know that you were different?

Very early. I had my first homosexual experience when I was 9 years old with another boy in our neighborhood in my age group. It became very rough though as I entered into the ministry because I would hear people use words, but you got to remember, that in the 50’s people didn’t use the word ìhomosexual,î so you would hear these little things. I knew what I was doing the church would feel was wrong.

My family moved to Alabama and I married my pastor’s daughter, after telling him about these funny feelings I was having around my homosexuality.

He said ìAll you need is to marry a good woman and that will take care of that problem.î At that time she (the pastor’s daughter) and I sang duets in church. We were married for five years, from 18 until about 23. We moved to Illinois where I pastored a small church and then to California where I pastored a church in Santa Ana. There I came to terms with being gay and she moved back to Illinois with her parents and my two sons. I’ve lived in Southern California for 40 years.

What did you see in your future when you started to realize you were different?

Well, I didn’t know in one breath, I knew I was called to the ministry and that was the hard part. I knew it was going to be rough and, sure enough, when my Pentecostal church found out that I was gay, I was excommunicated. They told me God couldn’t love me and I couldn’t love God. So, I made up my mind, ìOkay God, you can’t love me and I can’t love you. Don’t bug me. I won’t bother you. Let’s just keep it like that.î But I tell people today, I’m eternally grateful. I can tell you, that’s not how God works. But I knew it was going to be rough in some ways, yet when my wife and I divorced, I wrote her a letter and said good or bad or indifferent, this is what I am and I’m not going to lie about it any more. I just made up my mind, however rough it was, I would get through this and not be ashamed of who I was and I was not going to lie to anybody.

I have such a hunger for religion and church and spirituality. I tried to push it away. My first partner, in a gay sense, walked out of my life, and one evening I was shaving, I broke down crying, took a razor blade, crawled into the tub, cut both of my wrists. My roommate came home and when I didn’t answer the door he broke the door down, wrapped tourniquets on my arms raced me to County General Hospital. When I got there, something happened that changed my life. An African-American nurse walked in and said to me, ìI don’t know why you’ve done thisÖî and she held out her arms, and my God, the scars on this woman’s arms. I couldn’t believe it. She said, ìCan’t you look up? Isn’t there somebody you can talk to?î She really pushed every button on me from my church and my background as a kid. I broke down crying all over again and when she left I prayed and I said, ìGod, I’m going to ask forgiveness because I put my love on Larry, thought he was God, and now we’ve broken up and here I am. I want to ask forgiveness because I committed the sin of Romans 1, 26 through 28.î But I thought, I’d made my lover God, and had sinned in doing that.

Then I felt all at once what we Christians call joy of our salvation and I was feeling pretty good when the doctor walked in and he starting sewing up my arms and he was not nice at all. He said, ìYou know this is just stupid.î He was preaching at me, and he said ìDo I need to lock you up for 72 hours? Are you going to be okay?î And, I said, ìWell, what do you think?î He said, ìI think you need your ass kicked all over this hospital. That’s what I think.î But he said, ìYou have a choice here. Life is all about choices.î And I’m telling you, he rattled me, but he was absolutely right and after he finished I said, ìNo, I’ll do okay. You don’t need to lock me up.

So the next morning when I got back home, my roommate said, ìAre you going to be okay or do I need to take off from work?î I said, ìNo, I’ll be fine.î And when he left I said, ìGod, what am I going to do about my work? If they see these scars,î and once you’re thinking about living instead of dying, and I thought, I’ve got to go buy some long-sleeved shirts to wear to work or they’d fire me. I know they would. And then in the middle of it too, I almost felt that joy I’d felt the night before and I said, ìWhoa, wait a minute, God. This can’t be you.î I said, ìMy church has taught me I can’t love you, and you can’t love me, so no matter what I’m feeling, it can’t be you. You can’t love me.î

With that, God spoke to me. He said, ìTroy, don’t tell me what I can and can’t do. I love you. You’re my son. I don’t have stepsons and daughters.î I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I could be a Christian. The next thing I did was to start looking at my own community and I tried to find a church to go to and my mother would say, ìWhy do you have to tell everybody you’re a homosexual?î I said, ìMother, because they ask. No matter what church I go to, after they find out, you know they threw me in the adult singles Sunday school class in Protestant churches, which is a marriage mill, and they threw me in there. The first Sunday I’m fine, the second Sunday they asked me to pray and then they know I must have a church background. Then they start questioning me, ìAre you married?î ìNo, I’m divorced.î ìWhy are you divorced?î ìBecause I’m a homosexualî They uninvited me to church immediately.

Later I started dating Tony. He and I went to the first gay dance bar in LA. The owner of the bar would always say it’s illegal for men to dance with men but if you dance beside each other it’s okay as long as you’re not touching. While we were there one night, Tony went and bought us a beer. A friend of ours started cutting up with him and Tony said something that was really funny and my friend reached up and slapped him on the rump. Tony walked back over, gave me my beer, then the police in plain clothes, the LAPD vice squad, walked up and said come out with me. I said, ìWho are you talking to?î He said ìNot to you, to him.î And Tony was arrested.

It took us six hours to get Tony and my friend, out of jail. When I got him out of jail, he was crying and said ìI’ve never been treated this way in my life. They kept talking to me in Spanish, saying he was going to call my employer and tell them all about me.î I said ìOh, they’re just trying to bluff you. Don’t worry, Tony.î He said ìTroy I’m not so sure about that. Nobody cares about us. Nobody likes a queer.î I said ìTony, get over the self-pity trip. People do care.î and he said ìNo Troy, nobody cares about me.î I said ìWell, even if I believed people didn’t care, God cares.î Tony laughed in my face and said, ìNo Troy, God doesn’t care about me. I went to my priest when I was 15 years old. I told him about my feelings and he ordered me out of church. He was afraid I would contaminate other children in the Sunday school. God doesn’t care about me.î

I went home, knelt and prayed and said, ìGod I think I found my niche in the ministry again. I kept trying to find a church to go to and I just can’t find one and I believe that you knew me in my mother’s womb. You tell me you love me and if you love me, you must love other homosexuals. If you want to see a church started with outreach into our community let me know.î And that still voice in the mind’s ear, said ìNOW.î

I took out an ad, ìHear Reverend Troy Perryî and I gave my home address in Huntington Park, California and went home and told my roommate. He said ìYou are crazy! You mean you took out an ad, giving our home address in a gay newspaper?î And I said ìYes.î I mean I was always brave. I always tell them I was either crazy or brave or I was stupid. It didn’t even dawn on me that might be something that interested the police department. But I took out that ad ìHear Reverend Troy Perry.î Twelve people showed up for that first service, October 6, 1968, nine friends and three strangers, one heterosexual couple, one person of color, one Jew, one woman. I just look at it and always said it was visions of things to come for Metropolitan Community Church, and within a year and a half to two years we had outgrown all of our spaces, bought our own church and started running over a thousand every Sunday in worship.

I learned a long time ago sometimes you suffer, and I’m not trying to sound like a martyr now, but with 21 of our churches burned down to the ground and pastors murdered, members murdered, I learned a long time ago, you can be bitter or you can be sweet. You can look at life, and I really do, as an exciting thing. You have to fight for what’s right. I just made up my mind years ago. People said ìYou’re going to get murdered, Reverend Perry,î and I said ìYou know that’s the very worst people can do to any of us. We’ve got to come out of the closet. We’ve got to stand up.î I always said that in our church. ìIf that’s the worst they can do, that’s not very much for us of the Christian faith because if they murder us, the Apostle Paul said ëTo be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord.’ So, I would just expect you all to keep the thing going. I would be in a better place than this one so I know that divine truth and I’m not going to back away from that.î

How did you get involved in the same-sex marriage movement?

In 1968 or after the church started, a Hispanic couple came to me and said, ìWould you marry us?î and I did their ìholy unionî, as we called it in MCC back then. Then, in 1970, a female couple came to me and said, ìWe want to have more than a holy union. We want to fight the state on this with you, Reverend Perryî. So, I got an attorney and on June 12, 1970, I married Joy Hickman and Judith Ann Belew and I sued under the provision of California law that allows common-law liaisons to be formalized by religious ceremony. In those days, a couple didn’t need to obtain a marriage license from a city or town hall. Later on, however, the court reconsidered the case and found the marriage was illegal because the California statutes specifically stated a marriage must take place between a man and a woman.

Today our denomination alone, does about 6,000 of these holy union marriages. But the difference is that MCC by-laws have been changed. MCC now calls it ìmarriageî unless the couple wants just a ìholy unionî and not a marriage. I’ve always viewed it as marriage as real as anybody else’s. When I view history and look at what happened with interracial couples, a lot of them had to leave the country to marry. They came home and their marriages weren’t recognized and it took until 1938 for California to say that interracial couples could marry legally in the state. I’m amazed when I look at history today that it took until 1998 for Alabama to take its laws out of its constitution that said there couldn’t be interracial marriages, and Mississippi until 99.

How would you describe your current marital status?

Wonderful. Out of this world. A friend of mine in Canada called and told me what happened and I screamed right out loud and immediately my partner, Phillip, came in the living room and said ìwhat’s wrong, what’s wrong?î I said, ìYou’re not going to believe this. In Canada, we can legally marry there now!î I immediately got on the telephone, called the city hall in Toronto to ask if you had to be Canadians to marry. They said that you didn’t. So, I contacted the church immediately.

What do you feel is your role in this movement?

I try to tackle hard problems, and that includes marriage, and to never give up. Until I take my last breath I will fight to end oppression against our community. I know there is some division in our community now. People are very worried. My God don’t start lawsuits. I agree with them, but on the other hand, I’m not going to back off from it either. I didn’t marry because I wanted to be political. I married because I’m deeply in love with the man that I’ve lived with for 18 years. I will constantly call all of our community to remember some days we may disagree over this issue and it really isn’t about the Republican Party, the Democratic Party. It really is about OUR right. I said I’m married. I am married and I’ve been lawfully married and I’m gonna stand on that.

How do you feel you’ve made a difference already?

I think that Phillip and I have made a difference by going to Canada and marrying. I hope that thousands of couples will go there from all the states. I believe that in five years one of the states here in the United States will legalize gay marriage and then it would be a domino affect just like interracial marriage. Yes, it took a while starting in California and New York in the 30s, then moving right on through the south in the 60s before people were starting to be married in churches in their states even though it was illegal.

In your estimation what are the costs to society by not allowing same-sex couples to marry?

It’s a very bad cost. It’s the same thing when they wouldn’t allow interracial couples to marry. These were good, decent, upstanding citizens who were good neighbors to people and it’s the same thing. Any time we have oppression, it costs our government. It costs it in time. It costs it in legal fees. It costs good citizens being able to be recognized and knowing that they are respected by their government as well as their neighbors.

And so how do you think the world would be a better place if we had same-sex marriage?

If we could marry that ends all of our fight around adoption, taxation. I could just go through a list of a thousand things that we get when we marry as a couple in the U. S. My marriage is recognized before God, and that’s the most important thing to me. But I will not rest until this state recognizes my marriage too. I’ve got the marriage license. It’s framed.

Do you ever feel like giving up where same-sex marriage won’t be a reality and if so where do you go to get your inspiration to keep going?

I believe it will and so I don’t get discouraged. Mine is to constantly move ahead. Mine is to always look at my faith, my community. I thank God for Canada and for having the guts. The awful thing was that when I crossed the border to come back home I lost freedoms that I had there.

How do you think fair and equality-minded Americans convince themselves that marriage should be between one man and one woman only?

The statistics now show we’re getting closer. That’s one reason why I’m asking couples to go to get married, come back into their communities and announce they’ve been married. Phillip and I sent out little things to all the people in the condominium where we live. Everybody’s been absolutely supportive.

Last year in the Valentine’s demonstrations, we lined up with the heterosexuals to go ask to be married and we knew we’d be told no. Why we were doing it again was to get heterosexuals used to seeing us in line with them to ask for the right to be married, in other words, a marriage license. So, you know, I’m going to constantly do that.

I believe to know us is to love us. We don’t owe apologies to anybody. People who know gay and lesbians know that’s true too. That’s what’s made a difference, our being open more. Being open about marriage is going to make a difference too.

If you had the whole country listening to you for five minutes what would you say to them to convince them of same-sex marriage?

Number one, I would introduce my partner and let them see, and talk about our relationship and explain that our lifestyle is really a lot like theirs. We get up in the morning, have breakfast, talk. We kiss each other goodbye and we go to work. In the evenings we come home. We talk again. We watch a little television. We go to bed. They need to know how our lifestyle is like theirs.

Number two, it’s not right, it’s not good to ever discriminate. I pay taxes like everybody else does. I send all their kids to school. I’ll be damned if I’m going to be treated any differently than any other citizen under our constitution.

How would you approach someone that’s on the fence about same-sex marriage?

I’ve noticed that the Democratic nominees for President right now, half of them believe in civil unions, but not marriage. I would say to them what is it about my relationship? If it’s religious then let’s talk about that. I’m religious too. Why don’t I have a right? It should never be decided on religious grounds but civil grounds, because it’s the government that tells us we can’t marry, not the church. We have thousands of churches, synagogues that are all marrying gay and lesbian couples all over this country.

Who are your favorite civil rights leaders and inspirationalists and why?

Dr. Martin Luther King showed me what we could do as a young person. I was raised in the south. I couldn’t believe that people of color had been persecuted the way they had, that were told at one point in their lives that they couldn’t marry who they loved. During slavery, slave owners would sell off whole families. When he talked about this wonderful country and what we could become, it just thrilled me no end. I’ve been to the mountain and I’ve seen the other side.

Who else influences you in your life, famous and unknown?

Well, my friends. My partner. My church. My faith in God, always in prayer and knowing that God loves me, God cares for me.

What has surprised you most about people’s responses to the same-sex marriage movement?

It is amazing how many heterosexual couples have congratulated Phillip and I. The Los Angeles Times did a little story saying we were going to Canada to get married. We’ve been on television since then. Heterosexuals come up and say congratulations.

What are your goals for the future?

My goals for the future are to keep fighting for our rights. I’m going to retire as Moderator of our denomination in two years, but I’m not going to retire from movement work. I’m not good on the political side of this. It’s a real personal thing with me, but I will continue my struggle and my fight, again, until I die, to see this happen in our country.

How did you and Phillip meet?

We met at church. A friend introduced us. I vaguely remembered the meeting when I met him two years later. So later we met and started talking and we’ve never been separate since then.